Comments on: Lack of Sympathy http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/2010/02/18/lack-of-sympathy/ learning, networks, knowledge, technology, community Sat, 4 Feb 2012 22:56:23 -0500 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.4 By: Howard http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/2010/02/18/lack-of-sympathy/comment-page-1/#comment-38821 Howard Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:23:49 +0000 http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/?p=4618#comment-38821 Before universities existed, most people learned by apprenticeship. As Harold points out, before WWII universities apprenticed elites; priests, doctor, scholars, teachers, etc. . .. The mode of learning was still an apprenticeship model and most elite education ended with a very specific apprenticeship practice like a dissertation or medical residency, or for the wealthy, an initiation into "the club". But educational theory ignored the way things worked and stressed knowledge over doing, knowledge that was represented by a degree. Many people are now finding out that a degree correlated with higher incomes, but did not necessarily cause them. Knowledge alone proves to be no covering, the emperor has no clothes. We may not be blacksmiths or leather tanners, but evolution has not changed us that much and we still learn in much the same way as we always have, by watching other people do things. I think education would be better off if it focused on doing instead of knowing. Cue song Whistling in the Dark http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyhGtKAkNTo&feature=related Before universities existed, most people learned by apprenticeship. As Harold points out, before WWII universities apprenticed elites; priests, doctor, scholars, teachers, etc. . .. The mode of learning was still an apprenticeship model and most elite education ended with a very specific apprenticeship practice like a dissertation or medical residency, or for the wealthy, an initiation into “the club”. But educational theory ignored the way things worked and stressed knowledge over doing, knowledge that was represented by a degree.
Many people are now finding out that a degree correlated with higher incomes, but did not necessarily cause them. Knowledge alone proves to be no covering, the emperor has no clothes. We may not be blacksmiths or leather tanners, but evolution has not changed us that much and we still learn in much the same way as we always have, by watching other people do things. I think education would be better off if it focused on doing instead of knowing.
Cue song Whistling in the Dark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyhGtKAkNTo&feature=related

]]> By: Mike C. http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/2010/02/18/lack-of-sympathy/comment-page-1/#comment-38812 Mike C. Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:21:50 +0000 http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/?p=4618#comment-38812 @Gary What I think your seeing in that poll is the correct view of many people that college-educated *jobs* are more important than ever -- they are. And how do you get those jobs? You go to college. I don't believe that most people believe that college *has* to be the route to those jobs -- it just is, and people can't (for the moment) imagine other routes. But the second part of that poll data -- about us being out of touch -- shows that when they do figure out another route, we are likely toast. The time we have left to change before we implode is probably defined by how long it takes the public to separate "college-educated job" from college. [The elephant in the room is a lot of what holds that in place already is rascism and classism. At least in the States, hiring a college grad is hiring "people like us" -- so I'm not entirely sure we should look at this reprieve as an unmitigated social good....] @Gary What I think your seeing in that poll is the correct view of many people that college-educated *jobs* are more important than ever — they are. And how do you get those jobs? You go to college.

I don’t believe that most people believe that college *has* to be the route to those jobs — it just is, and people can’t (for the moment) imagine other routes.

But the second part of that poll data — about us being out of touch — shows that when they do figure out another route, we are likely toast.

The time we have left to change before we implode is probably defined by how long it takes the public to separate “college-educated job” from college. [The elephant in the room is a lot of what holds that in place already is rascism and classism. At least in the States, hiring a college grad is hiring "people like us" -- so I'm not entirely sure we should look at this reprieve as an unmitigated social good....]

]]> By: IanL http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/2010/02/18/lack-of-sympathy/comment-page-1/#comment-38689 IanL Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:48:36 +0000 http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/?p=4618#comment-38689 Hockey in a couple of minutes, so I’ve got to make this quick… Try this on for size…. Are we confusing people’s feelings about HE with their thinking about HE? eg: If I pull the OCED’s PISA scores for Canada, I can see that the country has a truly exceptional educational system (BTW: thank you to all the K-12 Teachers/Admins/Trusties/Building Maintenance People/Cafeteria Staff and even the Gym Teachers….well, maybe not so much the Gym Teachers). But, if you asked me for my opinion about K-12 education…..the rant would be both long and loud because I really HATED high school (I can barley walk into my son’s school without getting nauseous). I can hold those two contradictory thoughts in my mind with frightening ease. College/university doesn’t create the same degree of emotional trigger for me, but I’d suspect that the same process might get put in action when you ask people questions like “Do universities provide a benefit to society? Suddenly the people who respond are transported back to being a lost, confused undergrad sitting in a lecture hall filled with 250 other lost, confused, over-sexed, zit-faced undergrads. Hockey in a couple of minutes, so I’ve got to make this quick…

Try this on for size….

Are we confusing people’s feelings about HE with their thinking about HE?

eg: If I pull the OCED’s PISA scores for Canada, I can see that the country has a truly exceptional educational system (BTW: thank you to all the K-12 Teachers/Admins/Trusties/Building Maintenance People/Cafeteria Staff and even the Gym Teachers….well, maybe not so much the Gym Teachers).

But, if you asked me for my opinion about K-12 education…..the rant would be both long and loud because I really HATED high school (I can barley walk into my son’s school without getting nauseous).

I can hold those two contradictory thoughts in my mind with frightening ease.

College/university doesn’t create the same degree of emotional trigger for me, but I’d suspect that the same process might get put in action when you ask people questions like “Do universities provide a benefit to society? Suddenly the people who respond are transported back to being a lost, confused undergrad sitting in a lecture hall filled with 250 other lost, confused, over-sexed, zit-faced undergrads.

]]> By: Matt http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/2010/02/18/lack-of-sympathy/comment-page-1/#comment-38684 Matt Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:22:09 +0000 http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/?p=4618#comment-38684 I would agree with Alan's comments, too - and even go so far as to put most online comments in the category of "vocal minority." I rarely find that those who speak out first, most, and loudest ever really truly reflect what a majority of the rest of world is feeling. Even if they are praising something. And not that they are necessarily wrong, either. They just rarely end up being the majority opinion. Just think about what impression online comments would give you of the attitude of most Americans towards Canadians :) I would agree with Alan’s comments, too – and even go so far as to put most online comments in the category of “vocal minority.” I rarely find that those who speak out first, most, and loudest ever really truly reflect what a majority of the rest of world is feeling. Even if they are praising something. And not that they are necessarily wrong, either. They just rarely end up being the majority opinion. Just think about what impression online comments would give you of the attitude of most Americans towards Canadians :)

]]> By: cocco http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/2010/02/18/lack-of-sympathy/comment-page-1/#comment-38683 cocco Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:10:44 +0000 http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/?p=4618#comment-38683 The University is a strange place. While I love academics, I'm afraid that many are far removed from reality, which unfortunately should not be and does not have to be the case, esp if they are going to "balance government, business, and religious institutions." I agree with gsiemens on the bureaucracy and business issues. Speaking of which, I was on Columbia's Athletics' site today, and a scotch tape ad jumped out at me. And then a cheese ad. This is what's become of the ivy league? The University is a strange place. While I love academics, I’m afraid that many are far removed from reality, which unfortunately should not be and does not have to be the case, esp if they are going to “balance government, business, and religious institutions.” I agree with gsiemens on the bureaucracy and business issues. Speaking of which, I was on Columbia’s Athletics’ site today, and a scotch tape ad jumped out at me. And then a cheese ad. This is what’s become of the ivy league?

]]> By: gsiemens http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/2010/02/18/lack-of-sympathy/comment-page-1/#comment-38682 gsiemens Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:53:03 +0000 http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/?p=4618#comment-38682 @Gary - interesting contradiction: we see the need for quality higher education and we recognize the funding scheme is out of whack (driven largely, I think, by universities seeking to emulate business disciplines)...but a large segment of society has some disdain for higher education as being out of touch with real life. The value of education is recognized. But it's current form is viewed as ineffective. @Gary – interesting contradiction: we see the need for quality higher education and we recognize the funding scheme is out of whack (driven largely, I think, by universities seeking to emulate business disciplines)…but a large segment of society has some disdain for higher education as being out of touch with real life. The value of education is recognized. But it’s current form is viewed as ineffective.

]]> By: gsiemens http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/2010/02/18/lack-of-sympathy/comment-page-1/#comment-38680 gsiemens Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:49:22 +0000 http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/?p=4618#comment-38680 @Harold - like you, I don't find much to be happy about with the prospect of declining universities. Universities are a key "power pillar" in society, balancing government, business, and religious institutions. Universities are being weakened - no doubt there. I'm curious about how gains from this weakening. To a large degree, universities are responsible for their own fate - increasing bureaucracy and emulation of business practices at the expense of teaching and research. However, unlike the financial industry, which willingly accepted public funding to distribute its errors across society, universities are not an integral part of most people's lives (as Brian notes). @Harold – like you, I don’t find much to be happy about with the prospect of declining universities. Universities are a key “power pillar” in society, balancing government, business, and religious institutions. Universities are being weakened – no doubt there. I’m curious about how gains from this weakening.

To a large degree, universities are responsible for their own fate – increasing bureaucracy and emulation of business practices at the expense of teaching and research. However, unlike the financial industry, which willingly accepted public funding to distribute its errors across society, universities are not an integral part of most people’s lives (as Brian notes).

]]> By: gsiemens http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/2010/02/18/lack-of-sympathy/comment-page-1/#comment-38678 gsiemens Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:42:13 +0000 http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/?p=4618#comment-38678 @Alan - heh. Hadn't thought of that. I have found that globeandmail and cbc in Canada have some of the most vitriolic comments. Maybe YouTube promises a hopeful future for humanity after all :) @Alan – heh. Hadn’t thought of that. I have found that globeandmail and cbc in Canada have some of the most vitriolic comments. Maybe YouTube promises a hopeful future for humanity after all :)

]]> By: gsiemens http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/2010/02/18/lack-of-sympathy/comment-page-1/#comment-38676 gsiemens Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:40:39 +0000 http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/?p=4618#comment-38676 @Brian - good point - i.e. Willinsky. It's difficult for people outside of education to care about the institution after graduation. Universities have somewhat intentionally separated themselves from society by treated learning as an event, not a process. I hope you're wrong about funding cuts resulting in openness being seen as a luxury :(.... @Brian – good point – i.e. Willinsky. It’s difficult for people outside of education to care about the institution after graduation. Universities have somewhat intentionally separated themselves from society by treated learning as an event, not a process.

I hope you’re wrong about funding cuts resulting in openness being seen as a luxury :( ….

]]> By: Brian http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/2010/02/18/lack-of-sympathy/comment-page-1/#comment-38673 Brian Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:37:01 +0000 http://www.elearnspace.org/blog/?p=4618#comment-38673 I remember John Willinsky making this exact point as an argument in favour of openness. Essentially, he suggested that unless you worked for or attended a university, you had little reason to care about higher education funding. Willinsky argued for a commitment to 'public service learning' - a strong effort to have as much activity as possible result in readily accessible public resources, preferably ones with value to the local community. I'd suggest that a good-faith effort by the university to incorporate and add value to the skills and knowledge of the community outside the gates applies as well. I don't know if that would work or not. But if anything I expect funding cuts to perpetuate a cycle of circling the wagons by the acaedmy, and seeing openness as a luxury - thereby justifying the low opinion so many people have of the institutions. I remember John Willinsky making this exact point as an argument in favour of openness. Essentially, he suggested that unless you worked for or attended a university, you had little reason to care about higher education funding.

Willinsky argued for a commitment to ‘public service learning’ – a strong effort to have as much activity as possible result in readily accessible public resources, preferably ones with value to the local community.

I’d suggest that a good-faith effort by the university to incorporate and add value to the skills and knowledge of the community outside the gates applies as well.

I don’t know if that would work or not. But if anything I expect funding cuts to perpetuate a cycle of circling the wagons by the acaedmy, and seeing openness as a luxury – thereby justifying the low opinion so many people have of the institutions.

]]>