Join: April 29, 2003 1:05:43 PM CDT Patd: fit audience though few, I think milton said Instructor: :) Patd: am i early? Instructor: Yes...we start in one hour Patd: bye Instructor: ok Instructor: Hi Brian Brian: Howdy. Just getting the hang of the settings. Instructor: no prob Instructor: we start in about 30min Brian: Great. See you (so to speak) then. Instructor: Hi Brian Brian G: Hi George, looks like a nice piece of software here... Brian G: Whoops, just saw the speaker light moving, had to turn up the volume... I hear you... Patd: no just letting you know i'm here Brian G: I need to go find a microphone ;) Patd: cool Patd: got it Brian G: Thanks, got it. Instructor: ok Instructor: heard you Patd: volume ok? Instructor: yes Instructor: actually, you still have mic on Instructor: hear you typing :) Patd: odd - don't you have to hit TALK button to open mike? Instructor: yes...hit talk to open...and button again when you're done Instructor: Hi Guy Instructor: Hey Charlie Andrew Carpenter: Hello. all. Instructor: Hi Andrew...can you hear our audio Cel4145: hi. think the mic might work Andrew Carpenter: Yes, can hear you. Patd: little louder? Instructor: can you click talk again to end Brian G: very soft, but I can hear you Patd: not much but i can mostly hear you Patd: fine Cel4145: perfect for me Brian G: perfect Andrew Carpenter: Volume is fine. Instructor: ok Guy: good Cel4145: having trouble finding the talk button Instructor: perfect Patd: good Instructor: Hi Scott Brian G: good on my end Scott_leslie: howdy volume is great Instructor: charlie...just need you to end audio Cel4145: sorry about that :) Brian G: loud Patd: too loud Instructor: much better Patd: better Brian G: good Cel4145: much better Guy: good Instructor: good Cel4145: seems good, scott Scott_leslie: great! Scott_leslie to Brian: Brian, are you Biran Lamb? Alanl: need to check my mike Instructor to Scott_leslie: Scott - I think Brian G is brian lamb Scott_leslie to Brian G: Brian - are you Brian Lamb? Brian: Brian is Brian Lamb (should have been clearer) Scott_leslie to Brian: no worries - I was just using the one to one messaging and wanted to know if you were here Alanl: Alan Levine, Maricopa Community Colleges Alanl: Learning Objects, RSS David Davies: george, are we starting in 55 mins? i'm not sure if I calculated the time difference correctly Instructor to David Davies: Hi David...we are actually starting now Brian G: Brian Gershon, Seattle, WA - Technology Person - Web and Open Source (Development and Training)... Guy: Guy: Red River College, Winnipeg. IT instructor David Davies: oops! i'm here now anyway. when's stephen's presentation? Instructor to David Davies: his presentation will start in about 20 mintues Jody - Rrc: Jody Baty, Red River College, Winnipeg, Canada David Davies: ok, i'm with you and ready to introduce myself Jody - Rrc to Guy: Have you tried Tools...Audio..Microphone Boost ? Guy: No. I'll try. David Davies: shoot, did no sound come through? sorry, not sure what's wrong. Andrew Carpenter: A question (for when you have time to address it): To what extent do you think we have the technological tools to do a good job fostering communities of practice? Andrew Carpenter: For example, Blogs + RSS may not be the ideal tools for this. David Davies to Andrew Carpenter: Andrew, what about VLEs with content syndication tools? Brian to Scott_leslie: Hadn't realised this had a direct messaging component. Just testing it out. Glad to see you could make it to this. Scott_leslie to Brian: yeah, I'm not sure where to go with this but I wanted to hear them out. Plus a self forming community like this is a fascinating thing to behold Andrew Carpenter to David Davies: David, I'd like to hear more about those tools! David Davies to Andrew Carpenter: you use a VLE now? Brian to Scott_leslie: That it is. We can make rude comments as warranted. Who knows about privacy? Is there a master list of comments that someone sees? Andrew Carpenter to David Davies: I don't think so -- at least, I don't know what the acronym stands for so I can't be sure! David Davies to Andrew Carpenter: ok, sorry, virtual learning environment e.g WebCT, though that might be a bad example as far as content syndication goes! Scott_leslie to Brian: yeah I think the 'instrcutor' sees the 'direct messages' Andrew Carpenter to David Davies: Oh, okay -- yes, I work with those all the time. The issue, specifically, is what tools are available for folks who want to work on open source education. Are there open source VLEs and the like that offer more colloborative tools than blogs, etc.? Guy: What about the old GiGo (garbage in, garbage out) problem that could cripple such a movement. How can we control quality and/or fluff deposits that might increase overhead, duplication, etc. Brian G: Content Management Systems.... Alanl: Let the market rate the quality... Andrew Carpenter: To what extent do you think Blog culture, which often is heavily driven by the ego-gratification of the blogger, is compativle with vibrant communities of practice? David Davies: are communities of practice likely to be based around subject disciplines e.g medicine? Andrew Carpenter: Should be looking for other sources, models for the strongest communities of practice? David Davies to Andrew Carpenter: yes, seevral open source VLEs e.g Boddington and I think CoSe... David Davies: the strongest COPs must come from shared subject areas? Instructor[George Siemens]: yes Instructor[Downes]: hear you fine Instructor[Downes]: I think COPs will be based around subject ares... Andrew Carpenter: Yes, probably that is the case -- but I think there will also be interesting inter/cross-disciplinary opporunties to explore. Scott_leslie to Brian: for instance, we have a community of practioners who are all Professional Development coordinators, but across many disciplines Scott_leslie: for instance, we have a community of practioners who are all Professional Development coordinators, but across many disciplines Instructor[Downes]: yup Andrew Carpenter: For example, a philosopher of biology might be interested in some of your learning objects. Guy: CoPs will ultimately be driven by common interest, which crosses disciplines. David Davies: andrew is correct though the cross subject sharing of RLOs is something yet to be convincingly demonstrated to me David Davies: at least in my subject area i should say Scott_leslie: CGI not CIG Instructor[George Siemens] to Downes: yes Alanl: site ok David Davies: i'm there stephen Cel4145: i see it Guy: me too Scott_leslie: yup Andrew Carpenter: A question: I feed RSS streams of search data results from CAREO and Humbul and a couple of others to send me via RSS objects related to subjects/concepts that interest me. What does DLORN provide that I don't already have? David Davies: stephen, in an RLO repository with many thousands of objects does the DLORN scale? Cel4145: Does DLORN require RLO specific feeds, or is there a way to tag RSS already used by blogs so that DLORN will be able to harvest the ROL? David Davies: what about a distibuted *search* that returns RSS rather than search RSS Scott_leslie: how is this different than the p2p model implemented in the POOL/Splash client/model? Andrew Carpenter: My RSS aggregrator includes customized searches that meet by specific interests, and it seems that this is a model that I can use to access metadata. So, my question really is: Can DLORN allow me to use metadata in other ways, offer me new benefits, etc.? Brian G: What RSS Agg do you use? Andrew Carpenter: (Sorry if that isn't clear, Stephen. Feel free to ignore my question if you don't have time to address it here.) Andrew Carpenter: (Brian, I use NewsGator to pump RSS streams into Outlook stores and then use the Outlook database NEO to give me robust viewing, searching, oranizing capacity. A very nice combination.) David Davies: yes Scott_leslie: re: search - how about Micah Alpert's googlesphere search using the google API? David Davies: cf gnutella, if a peer is online they're searched, if not then no worry David Davies: should we put questions through george? Instructor[George Siemens] to Downes: sure Instructor[George Siemens]: sure Instructor[George Siemens]: I'll compile and ask David Davies: george, here's my federated search with RSS result return Cel4145: My question answered. David Davies: http://medweb5.bham.ac.uk/databases/interop/mcqs Patd: light bulbs here David Davies: RSS 1.0 allows for dublin core Scott_leslie: why embed it in RSS? Don't most of the existing repositories already produce XML? David Davies: except if the RLO is a CD/DVD ROM then you can't point to it directly David Davies: george, what place does OAI have in the DLORN model? Instructor[George Siemens]: keep questions coming David Davies: i'd like to hear if people have any experience of edutella-type P2P apps as a solution to the federated search problem Andrew Carpenter: Stephen, can't you get more than ten items out of CAREO through a search? Searches there can be ouput into RSS. Scott_leslie: The whole thing is already in XML, right? Scott_leslie: e.g. CAREO Jody - Rrc: Great session, George. I have to run now. Will the recording of this session be available? Thanks. Instructor[George Siemens] to Jody - Rrc: I have a link to the content...I'll post on my blog (newsletter) David Davies: yes but do ratings depend entirely unpon the context of use? Jody - Rrc: Thanks. David Davies: if your context of use of an object is different that your then ratings will be misleading? David Davies: good point scott David Davies: good point scott Instructor[Downes]: yeah, good point, scott - i'm just looking into opml David Davies: or OML for a bit more freedom Brian: Hi George, I have to run to a meeting. Thanks for setting this up -- excellent work. Will be in touch, hopefully we can contribute in some way. Scott_leslie: o.k., fair enough David Davies: how about OAI stephen? Patd: haha Alanl: RSS is simple, that's important- it be a doorway to lead to more complex metadata David Davies: too true, the LOM is going to constrain the use of RLOs in my opinion by restricting us to the LOM fields Scott_leslie: ok ok I'll remain slightly questioning but for now will suspend my disbelief ;-) Alanl: A more important area is the ways usage of LOs can link back to the repositories- Trackback is pretty crude, must be tools to build RDF into LO usage Instructor[Downes]: need url from andrew re his aggregator Andrew Carpenter: Sure. Hold on. Andrew Carpenter: The aggregrator plug-in for Outlook is NewsGator: http://www.newsgator.com/ Instructor[Downes]: kewl, tanks Andrew Carpenter: The Outlook database program is NEO: Nelson Email Organizer: http://www.caelo.com/ Andrew Carpenter: The combination is really killer! David Davies: i agree that OAI can be swapped in for RSS and as a point of interest the UK resource discovery network is looking at standardizing on OAI Brian G: Will DLORN incorporate more formalized work-flow? Similar to a content management system, where content goes through a series of steps... Andrew Carpenter: Both cost, but not much and the combination is very nice. Andrew Carpenter: Stephen, Outlook is atrocious -- the point of NEO is to provide a totally new interface with much more powerful organizing, presentation, searching options. So, you don't need to use Outlook to use NEO! Cel4145: FYI: I've started using Drupal, which George mentioned earlier, because the news aggregator is built into the site: Guy: Thanks George. Have to run. Instructor[George Siemens]: ok thanks Cel4145: http://cyberdash.com/module.php?mod=import --the next implementation will make rss items nodes which can be incorporated into the system Patd: little louder, charile Patd: yeah Instructor[Downes]: sounds great Cel4145: FSU's network is running slow at the minute, so you may need to checkout the page later Instructor[Downes]: exactly george - we are not trying to design 'the one system' - we simply are trying to loosely connect related systems Scott_leslie: the tehcnology doesn't necessarily even seem to be the issue - whether the tech be open or closed source, distributed or centralized, how does this necessarily impact that the *content* is open source Andrew Carpenter: With respect to learning objects, indivual instructors can incporate them in their bb or WebCT courses using existing tools. So, if good tools exist to give instructors acess to the objects, they can be integrated into the proprietary coursewarein that way. Instructor[Downes]: yup, great point, I think thta getting the system up & running & full of content will do it - think of how the web was in 1994 where everybody used proprietary systems like compuserv - same thing, exactly Instructor[Downes]: also, as andrew says, littlw tools that put the content into webct, etc... Scott_leslie: making a comment Andrew Carpenter: So, projets like DLORN are more tools to faciliate disucssion by existing CoP, as opposed to tools that help form or create new CoPs? Andrew Carpenter: I'm interested in the other side as well: open source education as a way to develop new CoPs. Scott_leslie to Andrew Carpenter: great point Instructor[Downes]: hand up... (can't find icon) David Davies: right, DRM, the developments you describe sound helpful Patd: where do libraries fit into this? Scott_leslie to Patd: great question!!! Instructor[Downes]: yup, other tools create cops David Davies: agreed, that's where the communications tools come in Andrew Carpenter: What are the best tools for creating cops? Normal BLOGS don't seem particularly well-suited for that. Andrew Carpenter: Maybe Wiki is more useful -- am not sure, so would love to hear more about this. David Davies: collaborative web site systems e.g wikis, zope, manila, etc can support COPS Andrew Carpenter: Good -- fostering learning content will support CoPs in a powerful way. Instructor[Downes]: or maybe type it ;) Instructor[Downes]: ah, ok, hearing it David Davies: what's that name again charlie? Instructor[George Siemens]: Dave Munger Instructor[Downes]: commontext.org ? Instructor[George Siemens]: yes Andrew Carpenter: So, with respect to Geroge's open education proejct, is the focus more on creating and fostering learning content, using technologies to create new CoPs, or both, or none, or what exactly? There are lots of really interesting possible projects here! Andrew Carpenter: Good, George -- I think pushing both of those goals is important! David Davies: use a shared authentication system like ATHENS Patd: good answer Instructor[Downes]: You know I'm really leery of autentication systems - they are changing the rules of commerce in an unpleasant way - you don't need to show ID to buy a book - why should it be so online? David Davies: because free content doesn't mean unrestricted access, e.g in medicine we have to respect patient confidentiality Andrew Carpenter: General question: Where do we go from here? I see from the Open Education website that working groups are forming. Are these going ahead? Instructor[Downes]: (great discussion & questions - we should archive & post this chat transcript) Alanl: Stephan, DLORN needs much deepre feeds, your ar eonly getting 10 from our MLX. I can fiddle a way to generate larger feed (contact me). There shoudl be some tools for building customized feeds as well Instructor[Downes]: yeah, David,, I agree - but I want to build a modl where authentication is the exception, for use in special cases, not the norm... David Davies: agreed stephen David Davies: besides we can still search/expose metadata to authenticated content Instructor[Downes]: From more specific (rarer) to less specific (more c ommon) range of DRM tools: authentication -> encryption -> password Alanl: Someone needs to hit MERLOT over the head; adding RSS took myself, D'Arcy, and others a matter of a few hours of tinkering Instructor[Downes]: It's a business decision on the part of Merlot - metadata is their only asset - I've had discussions - including attempted kicks in head - my message to Merlot - adapt, share metadata or become obsolete Brian G: Is there an online forum for the various WGs... Instructor[George Siemens]: kairosnews.org Patd: you want an open education button made? David Davies: we're all thinking! Instructor[Downes]: yes, Pat Instructor[Downes]: is that a cat I hear? Instructor[Downes]: woo hoo! David Davies: cool, i agree entirely Andrew Carpenter: Thanks, all -- a wonderful session: informative and inspiring! Brian G: Thank you, lots of things to think about.... Andrew Carpenter: (BTW, vClass is a great platform -- I hope that we can continue to use this and have additional meetings.) Instructor[Downes]: will voice / text archive be provied? Patd: thanks. great intro to this whole thing. makes me regret not having access to a open source cms. Instructor[Downes]: great! Scott_leslie: great to 'meet' you all - I second the comment about vClass - this worrked great! Instructor[Downes]: bye all Brian G: bye Patd: bye all and thanks Alanl: adios Scott_leslie: yes, bravo Cel4145: great presentation! bye! Instructor: thanks David! Instructor: ok...take care! :)